posted by Josh Brahm, June 20, 2012 @ 10:28 am

JOSH BRAHM LIVE: Responding to the Argument that Sentience is a Necessary Condition for Personhood

Download Audio MP3 | 00:23:58

Listen to an excerpt of an advanced pro-life training I recorded in Stockton in June, 2012. The training was hosted by Sohlnet and At the Well Ministries. More sections of this training to be released in the following weeks.

Credit for the material in this section of the training goes to Christopher Kaczor, Trent Horn, Francis Beckwith and myself.

Notes from Josh:  

  • Sorry for the occasionally scratchy audio. Apparently I was using a pretty poor-quality lapel mic.
  • I said something that my wife and I were told, which was that we may be the first couple to have a heterotopic pregnancy without using IVF. I’ve since been exposed to research that indicates this may not be the case. Doesn’t effect any of my arguments. Just trying to be accurate.  :)

  • Jerry Lame

    Concerning what you call “the episodic problem”: How do you, as a Christian who believes (I presume you must) in life after death, escape the episodic problem? If it’s resurrection, then there’s a gap between two episodes. If the soul continues without the body, and in that state it constitutes the person, then personhood has nothing to do with when biological life begins or ends, since the soul does not meet your criteria for life (it does not metabolize, for instance). If Christians don’t escape “the episodic problem”, why should it be taken as a serious objection?

    • lifereport

      I have much I can learn about deep Christian worldview answers, but the way I currently understand it, I believe the soul enters the body when the body becomes biologically alive, at fertilization. I believe the soul is eternal, while the body is not. I don’t believe there’s a period of time between bodily death and the soul moving on to a different place, so I don’t think there’s an episodic problem with my worldview.

  • Jerry Lame

    1) Many Christians and Jews believe we are dead until we are
    resurrected at the end of the world. That is, our lives are divided into two
    episodes. Some believe it is the same body revivified, in which case that body
    becomes a person, loses that status, and then regains it. The same can be said
    of Jesus’ body; Jesus (for believers) had two episodes of life on earth. So a
    discontinuous view of personhood is consistent with, and even central too, much
    of received religion.

    You don’t profess to know the true answer, so I doubt you
    would make fun of this view held by fellow Christians, or reject it outright,
    as you do a comparable view about coma held by those who believe that sentience
    is central to our identity. In fact sentience, for those who hold this view,
    plays much the same role as the soul does for those who believe in it. In each
    case, it is the most essential part of what makes us who we are. If it is not
    there, we are not.

  • Jerry Lame

    3) In the next life, how will you know it’s the same you who
    lived this one? You won’t have the same body. (Your former body will be in the
    ground.) You may not even have a physical body at all. So this body is not what
    makes you you. What would you have in common with your former self? Memories,
    personality, emotions, and what the philosopher Lynn Rudder Baker (in Persons and Bodies) calls your “first-person
    perspective”. In short, what will make you the same person will be your mental
    life. When people say “sentience”, that’s what they’re talking about.

  • Jerry Lame

    2) You say, “I don’t believe there’s a period of time
    between bodily death and the soul moving on to a different place, so I don’t
    think there’s an episodic problem with my worldview.” I presume this “different
    place” is not in this physical universe. So to measure its distance from us
    would be impossible. What about distance in time? Would that even have any
    meaning? That other place is sometimes called eternity, isn’t it? It seems like
    a pretty big discontinuity to me: the same person in a different body or no
    body, in a different universe or on a different plane of being. It seems like
    two radically different episodes to me, separated by some supernatural change.
    Why should this be easier to accept than discontinuous episodes of personhood
    here on earth in one body?

  • Jerry Lame

    4) If the soul is nonphysical, as your description suggests
    (it is eternal, it enters and leaves bodies and goes to other places without
    detection), then, according to the science of biology, it is not what makes the
    body alive. This was not always true. There was once a viable theory called “vitalism”
    that claimed that physics and chemistry could never explain life, so there must
    be an immaterial “life force” that explained it, and this was consistent with
    the idea that the soul was life, and it was what made the body alive. So if the
    body was alive, that was evidence that the soul was present. But it turned out,
    during the twentieth century, that physics and chemistry (together with an
    understanding of how information is encoded and processed in biological
    molecules) did explain life (at least all vital functions except consciousness,
    which has not yet been explained physically). Vitalism was false.

  • Jerry Lame

     So it may be a tenet
    of your religion that the soul enters the body at fertilization, but it is just
    as possible that, if such a thing as the soul exists, it enters the body at
    some other time. We have no way of knowing. So if, in your view, the immaterial
    soul is an essential aspect of being a person, then it would be wrong for you to
    claim that it is a scientific fact that a person is present from fertilization
    onward, because science cannot detect the soul. 

  • Trent Horn

    Jerry, your own view is not without controversy.  If you are identical to your mental states then what if someone else also obtains your mental states, are you now two persons (think hypnosis, intelligent AI, or Parfit’s brain fission problem). Most “psychological continuity advocates claim mental states ensure survival as long as there is “no-branching”, so you have the same epistemological problem, “how do I know I’m still me” that you feel the soul view has. However, Josh and I have external reasons to believe that a morally perfect God will resurrect our bodies and souls and guarantee us survival after bodily death.  The soul’s ability to explain consciousness and free will make believing in it rationally warranted, while the “mental account” has severe metaphysical problems.  Even if atheism were true, a philosopher could hold to an “organism” view of continuity like Don Marquis does, and still be without problems, which is essentially the view Josh defends from a secular viewpoint.

  • Jerry Lame

    Thanks, Trent, for your response. You seem to believe that
    the best defense is a good offence.  But
    this is not about my views, which I did not describe. It is about Josh’s. Are
    they consistent, or does he hold contradictory beliefs?

    In asking my original question, I had a limited goal: I was
    trying to get Josh to abandon his use of what he called “the episodic problem”
    as an argument against the sentience view. I attempted to do this by confronting
    him with a dilemma: either, as a Christian who believes in death followed by
    bodily resurrection, you accept an episodic view yourself (so you should not
    criticize it in others), or, as a Christian who believes in an immaterial soul
    that leaves the body while continuing to be the person, you must abandon the “person
    equals organism” view which is at the heart of most of what you do. Josh chose
    the second option. Even so, in my points 1) and 2) I pursued the episodic
    argument. But in point 4) I returned to the second horn of the dilemma which he
    had chosen. It opens a whole can of worms.

    Once, in a conversation with Josh, because I was completely
    mystified by his conviction that the embryo is a person, I tried to probe
    whether this belief of his might be based on belief in a soul. He denied it. It
    did not occur to me that his “person equals organism” ideology might actually
    be in conflict with his spiritual beliefs. That is the question on the table. You
    write, “Even if atheism were true, a philosopher could hold to an “organism”
    view … which is essentially the view Josh defends from a secular viewpoint.”
    But Josh is not an atheist nor does he have a secular viewpoint. He believes in an eternal, immaterial soul which is the
    bearer of personhood into the next life. The question is, can he defend the
    organism view from this viewpoint. In
    the two paragraphs of my point 4) I was not arguing against Josh’s position on
    the soul, which I respect.  Instead I was
    pointing to the difficulty of reconciling this belief with the “organism view.”

    Here’s the problem:  If you were identical to your body, as Josh’s
    arguments seem to assume, then once your body ceased to exist, it logically
    follows that you would too. When people say, without thought, as if nothing
    could be more obvious, “I was once an embryo,” they are assuming this identity
    of self with organism. (“Since the organism I am was once an embryo, I was once
    an embryo.”) But this assumption is inconsistent with life after death, unless
    it takes the form of resurrection in the very same body. If the soul can leave
    your body behind and still be you, it is no longer obvious that you were once
    an embryo, since to know that, you would have to know more about the soul’s
    peregrinations than anyone can claim to.

    This problem is obscured if you make the ancient and very intuitive
    assumption that ‘life’ is some kind of spirit inhabiting an organism and
    vivifying it, since then you can conclude that, if an organism is alive, it is
    ensouled. But this assumption has been shown by modern biology to be misguided.
    Life is a physical process, which does not answer to what most people mean by ‘spirit’.
    Once you abandon life=spirit=soul, if you believe that personhood is
    soul-based, the question arises: when does a living human organism become
    ensouled, and thus become a person? Given that the soul is immaterial and
    undetectable, there is no non-controversial way to answer this question. My
    strong suspicion is that the fabricators of the pro-life “organism view” (also
    called “animalism”, a strange choice for Christians) have done so in part in
    order to obscure this troubling question, because a theological answer would
    not serve their political and propagandistic purposes. It’s much more powerful
    to say this is about science, not religion.

  • Jerry Lame

    Regarding my point 3), Trent, let me clarify. Although it
    sounded like I was attempting to defend a view that we are identical to our
    mental states, or perhaps the so-called “psychological continuity view,” that
    was not my intention. Instead I was trying to stimulate the intuition which,
    incomprehensibly to me, your school of thought does not share, that sentience
    is central to our identity. I was asking Josh to imagine waking up in Heaven.
    He is a soul. He no longer inhabits Josh’s earthly body. What differentiates
    him from all the other souls in Heaven? What individuates him? It’s not his
    DNA. That no longer exists. What then? I suggested he would recognize himself
    as Josh by the familiar feeling of being who he was, through his memories,
    emotions, etc. This seems to me consistent with a soul-based view of personhood.
    Just for contrast, imagine Josh’s soul is in Heaven, but it is no longer
    conscious. There’s no body. There’s no mind. How is that Josh? Does it have a
    name tag? What is identical about it?

    One more point: I don’t believe soul “explains”
    consciousness or free will as you claim. It is merely a cipher put in place by
    the negative argument that physical reality cannot
    explain consciousness or free will. Therefore something nonphysical must
    account for them, about which we know nothing – call it a soul. Such a negative
    argument is far from offering an explanation of anything. Contrast this to the research
    program described by Christof Koch in his book Consciousness: Confessions of a Romantic Reductionist.

  • Jerry Lame

    I
    awaited some reply from either Josh or a colleague to what I took to be a
    serious challenge to the training you all devote yourselves to. What at first
    seemed a pregnant pause, after a week has become a resounding silence. I am
    left to wonder why.

    Did I offend you? I hope not. Perhaps I should not have personalized my
    questions by using Josh’s name rather than an impersonal pronoun. I did not
    mean any disrespect.

    Did you not consider the problem I brought up a serious one? If the assumptions
    underlying your pro-life arguments – specifically your animalism – contradict
    the spiritual beliefs of most Christians (including your own) and also those of
    many non-Christians, doesn’t this call at least for some explanation?

    Or is it that you simply have no answer, and it would not serve the pro-life
    cause to acknowledge this inconvenient truth?

    I hope I am simply being too impatient, and that someone is even now working on
    a reply.

    • lifereport

      Jerry, if you had any idea what the daily or weekly workload looks like for me and Trent, then one week of silence would not be so “resounding.”  I happened to be talking to Trent the other day and he mentioned interest in responding to some more of your comments, but that would depend on how much time he has left over after finishing the duties that his boss considers a higher priority. 

      I am not at all offended that you disagree with my position, and I look forward to watching more dialogue between you and Trent.

  • Jerry Lame

    My
    point was not that I disagree with your position. It was that YOU disagree with
    your position. I’m amazed that you can enjoy noticing contradictions in movies,
    like Buzz Lightyear acting like a toy although he doesn’t believe he’s one, but
    the glaring contradiction between your spiritual beliefs and your pro-life
    arguments seems to have completely escaped your notice, and when pointed out, it
    does not excite your interest enough for you even to respond to it personally.

    Virtually all your arguments assume that we are our bodies. But now you
    confess, “I believe that the soul is eternal, while the body is not.” You must
    believe that we survive with our souls rather than die with your bodies. So you
    DON’T believe that we are our bodies.

    In the excerpt from your training called “You’re Just Religious”, you get
    worked up about others supposing your arguments are invalid because you are a
    Christian. (You say that they’re basically saying “you’re stupid,” but a more charitable
    interpretation of such an attitude would be that they suppose that your
    arguments can be ignored because they are probably based on unstated suppositions
    that stem from your faith, suppositions which they don’t share). You say repeatedly
    that you “haven’t made any religious arguments” and that the views you express are
    “scientific and philosophic”.  But here’s
    a thought: maybe you’re mistaken. Maybe your arguments rely on unstated
    assumptions that ARE religious.

    Try this: You say, “I believe the soul enters the body when the body becomes
    biologically alive, at fertilization.” That is a religious view. Now imagine,
    just for the sake of argument, that this view is untrue, and instead that the
    soul enters the body at a later time, say when the fetus first becomes
    conscious. Would your argument that the fertilized egg is fully human still
    hold? The words would still make sense: organism, species, human, life, etc. But
    the idea that something without a human soul has equal value with something that
    possesses one was never something that you believed or argued for, because you
    didn’t have to, because you just assumed, because of your RELIGION, that life
    and soul always went together. Isn’t that true? If you dropped that assumption,
    mightn’t you reject your own argument?

    If this account is true, it would explain a lot to me. Despite your arguments,
    I’ve always regarded the idea that a single cell could be a person as verging
    on the insane. It was incomprehensible to me. It made no sense, UNLESS one assumed something supernatural were
    attached somehow to that cell. So I have been left completely puzzled and mystified
    how you, who are clearly not insane, could believe such a thing on the basis,
    as you claimed, of philosophy and science, because I believe in those things,
    and they don’t get me there. But religion can. I can understand that. But if
    you admitted as much, it would as good as put you out of business, wouldn’t it?
    Because it would mean you could no longer pose as making purely secular
    arguments to nonbelievers. And they could justly dismiss your arguments, since you would have admitted they rely on unshared tenets of your faith.

    • lifereport

      You are correct that I don’t believe “we are our bodies.” (Nor do I agree with your assessment that virtually all of my arguments assume we are our bodies.)

      I don’t remember exactly what I said to you on the phone, but I do know that I don’t always choose to give a religious answer when asked about my views, especially if it’s early in the conversation. At that time, I was pretty convinced that a strong secular argument could be made to ground human value, but since then I’ve become less convinced of that. While I do make principally secular arguments against abortion, I’ve often said publicly (especially in the last six months or so,) that when you ask deeper question like, “why are humans valuable in the first place,” my response is usually a religious one. This is because I’m no longer personally convinced by any of the purely secular arguments I’ve yet heard for human value. 

      I think a discussion on abortion can remain non-religious if both parties presuppose the idea of human value, (which most people do agree with,) and then debating the humanity of the unborn, or bodily autonomy arguments. But if you don’t both presuppose human value, I agree that a deeper discussion should be had that very well may go religious.

      As far as the “you’re just religious” audio I just released, I wasn’t talking about inquisitive people like you that don’t discriminate against religious people. I was ONLY asked to talk about the situation (that is sadly common for the group of activists I was speaking to,) where an atheist walks by a pro-life exhibit and refuses to engage or even listen to the pro-life person’s argument, and instead lazily exclaims, “you’re just religious!” If I was asked to talk about other, more reasonable people that take issue with our religious presuppositions, than that audio would clearly have been longer than six minutes.

      I don’t know enough about the scientific research you referenced that goes against the idea of ensoulment at fertilization, but I’m open to hearing more about it. 

      I’m not convinced my personal worldview has any episodic problem, because I don’t believe we are identical to our bodies. I don’t think there’s a gap in time between our bodies dying and our souls moving on to some other place and/or time.

      Meanwhile, I believe your view (if I remember it correctly,) that consciousness is a necessary condition for personhood, still suffers from the episodic problem. You even admitted on the phone that you don’t know what to do about the problems of sleep and temporary comas. Have you found an answer since then to that problem that satisfies you?

  • Jerry Lame

    Thanks,
    Josh, for replying to me. I know you’re busy. I get a little excited when I get
    what seems to me like a new idea, or I seem to see something in a new light.
    It’s too much to expect others, who come at things from a very different angle,
    to share my excitement, or even to understand what I’m trying to say on a first
    pass. So I’ll try to clarify.

    You say, “I don’t know enough about the scientific research you referenced that
    goes against the idea of ensoulment at fertilization, but I’m open to hearing
    more about it.” I’ll try to explain.

    There is no scientific research on ensoulment. There was once a theory called
    “vitalism” whose central claim was that physics and chemistry were inadequate
    to explain living things, so something beyond the physical was thought to be
    responsible for life. For instance, how could a tiny speck of protoplasm “know”
    what to develop into? Something must guide development which knew the goal for
    that species, and perhaps even for that individual. That “something beyond the
    physical” could have been the soul.

    For all anyone knew a hundred years ago, vitalism could have been true. If it
    had turned out that way, there might now be scientific research on the soul. The
    moment of ensoulment would be an object of study. Maybe we could watch parts of
    cells being moved around by an unseen force, a force that could explain growth
    and healing and heredity, a force that was irreducibly alive. It would be like
    a séance, but conducted by scientists in a laboratory peering through
    microscopes. Vitalists tended also to be spiritualists. They attended séances,
    collected ghost stories and founded psychic research laboratories. A new age in
    which science confirmed spiritual beliefs seemed right around the corner.

    But it didn’t turn out that way. Instead the central claim of vitalism was
    shown to be false. Physics and chemistry turned out to be perfectly adequate to
    explain biological life. Information plays a central role, but it is thoroughly
    embodied. For instance, vast amounts of it are encoded digitally in DNA
    molecules. No spooky entities were needed to explain life, nor were they ever
    found. Eventually we discovered that apparently formless “protoplasm” was made
    of myriads of ultramicroscopic molecular “machines” operating according to known
    physical laws, interacting with each other in vastly complex and tangled
    networks. Ordered behavior emerges unguided out of this complexity; it is not
    imposed on the parts by some knowing Unity. The field that studies all this is
    called molecular biology. Its subject matter – this whole level of reality – was
    unimagined when vitalism beckoned with a very different kind of answer.

    The upshot of all this is that (1) if there is an immaterial soul,
    science has not detected it, but (2) science can say one thing definitively about
    the soul: the soul is not life, nor does it cause life. Because we know what
    life (in the scientific, biological sense) is: it is an interlocking ensemble
    of physical processes which take place in organisms. These processes are
    carried out by the organism’s parts just by obeying the laws of physics. All such
    processes eventually suffer dissolution. They are not eternal. Nor do they slip
    in and out of bodies like ghosts. So life is not the soul.

    Another way of saying this is that, as far as biological life goes, materialism
    won. This doesn’t mean there is no soul, or that there is nothing that might be
    called “spiritual life”. But it does mean that the presence of life provides no
    scientific evidence for ensoulment. Philosophers and theologians have differing
    views on the soul, but they cannot call on science to settle the matter, unless
    they are willing to be satisfied with a methodological dictum, namely Occam’s
    razor: science has no need for the soul hypothesis.

    Now let’s go back to the little thought experiment I suggested, in the
    paragraph beginning “Try this…” You believe, you have said, that the soul
    enters the body at fertilization. I have just claimed that you cannot know this
    on the basis of science. So it is either philosophy and/or religion you rely
    on. But religions and philosophies differ on this, so you cannot know for sure.
    I suggested that you just imagine, for the sake of argument, that you are
    mistaken, and that the soul enters the body later. I needn’t claim this is
    true, or even probable. I did not cite any scientific evidence for it – there
    is none. (I can cite you theologians, if you are interested.) The point is that
    your argument that the zygote is fully human and of equal value with an adult
    would fall apart if it turned out that an adult was ensouled but a zygote wasn’t,
    because then you would have to argue that something with an eternal human soul
    was morally equivalent to something that lacked any soul at all. How could you
    do that? Therefore your argument for equal value relies covertly on an
    assumption you have not defended and cannot defend scientifically: that
    ensoulment occurs at fertilization.

    I’m sure you’re aware that it is very easy to accept an invalid argument when
    it proves what you already believe. Under your spiritual worldview, but without
    the assumption that ensoulment occurs at fertilization, the argument for moral
    equivalence of adult and zygote seems to fail. If you’re determined to defend
    the pro-life position, this should make the claim of ensoulment at
    fertilization very attractive. But to conclude, because it validates the full
    humanity of the zygote, that the zygote must be ensouled, and because it is
    ensouled it is fully human, would be to argue in a circle.

    I was just listening to some of Scott Klusendorf’s lectures at Biola. He says
    the issue is, “What is the unborn?” But if the question is, “Is the unborn one
    of us?” then there is another, prior issue that must be addressed: “What are
    we?” To merely say we are human animals, organisms, members of the human
    species, is an inadequate answer both for you and for me, though for different
    (but in-a-way similar) reasons. For you, the answer is something like: “We are
    eternal human souls inhabiting mortal human bodies for the time being.” For me,
    it is something like: “We are human minds inhabiting human bodies as long as
    our brains allow us to.” For neither of us are we identical to the organisms we
    inhabit. Once this is made clear, there is no logical reason to believe that
    the history of the organism we inhabit and our history are one and the same.

  • Jerry Lame

    Regarding
    “the episodic problem”, I don’t remember just how I was thinking about it when
    we had our phone conversation. But currently I don’t see it as a problem. I’ll
    try to convey an intuitive feel for why that is. I have more intuitions than
    arguments when it comes to describing my view of what we are. I don’t know if
    anyone shares the view I’ll describe. I don’t even believe I’ve ever read quite
    this view anywhere. So I don’t know if, once worked out, it would be defensible.
    But this is the way it seems to me now:

    I don’t think we are things, or like things. If a stone or a fly were vaporized
    and then rebuilt from scratch, could it be the very same stone or fly? Maybe
    not. On the other hand, take the San Diego River. Sometimes there’s water in it,
    sometimes not. When it’s dry, there is no river. When the water returns, is it
    the same river it was before? Most people would say yes. The river can only be
    destroyed by permanently cutting off its water source, or by eradicating the
    river bed, so water could never flow in the same way along the same path again.
    A person’s mental life is like a river that flows through the channels of one
    brain, intermittently.

    Or take music: each time you hear a particular song, is it the same song? The
    answer is yes, it is the same song, though a different instance or performance
    of it. A person is like a song which, as it happens, can only be played on one
    instrument in the world, his or her own body.

    What about the philosophical conundrum Trent brought up? What if my body,
    including my brain, were duplicated atom for atom, say by a transporter
    malfunction, as once occurred in an episode of “Star Trek: The Next
    Generation”? Now two bodies would have my personality and my memories from
    before the duplication. Would they both be me? My answer is yes. But how could
    that be? If I were like a stone, a thing, a particular, it couldn’t be. A stone
    can’t be two stones. One stone can’t be numerically identical to another. But
    two performances of a song can be instances of the same song. I seem to be
    saying that I am a kind of event. Every time I wake up the universe is playing
    the “Jerry” song one more time, in a slightly different arrangement. It’s not
    that an unchanging ‘I’ wakes up to a new world. It’s that a new world is doing
    me again.

    I’m reminded of a verse from John: “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou
    hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it
    goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” I don’t know exactly what that
    is supposed to mean, but even the word ‘spirit’ is related to ‘breath’. A wind,
    a breath, is not a substance. It is not a thing. It is insubstantial. It is a
    movement in something greater – in a substance or a medium. A wind can gust and
    die down, then blow again, and still be the same wind. Or does it even matter
    or make sense to ask if it is numerically the same one, if it is the same kind
    of motion?

    Perhaps some aspects of Christianity are about a person who can live in more
    than one body … as I say I can, under special circumstances, if a person is a
    kind of event. But my view is not the substance view.

    We are evanescent, like a wind that blows across a field and then is gone. Why all
    this thirst for permanence?

    It might be objected that, if my brain (or my body as a whole) contains all the
    information necessary to produce this “song of myself”, why not say I am my
    body, and my mental states are properties of my body, and my mental acts are
    done by my body? Then I would exist even when I was unconscious, as common
    sense holds. I would be something substantial.

    The best I can do here is to say that I believe I am immanent in my experience
    and mental acts, as an aspect or dimension or a pole of them. That is how I
    experience myself. I am a character in my mental life. That is what you meet,
    through my body, which the character inhabits.

    Here’s a another musical metaphor: the iPod is not the song, nor is the
    information stored in it. The song only exists when it is being played. It
    isn’t a property of the iPod; it is created, or recreated, by it. Likewise, my
    mind isn’t a property of my body; it is (I believe) created by it, and then
    inhabits it. I am an aspect or property of the organization of my mind. So when
    it flickers out, I do. But I can return, as long as my brain is capable of
    making that happen.

    I expect all this will seem terribly counterintuitive to you, and I am not
    prepared to explain fully why I believe it. I’m not sure I even know. But
    perhaps I’ve managed to convey … at least some notion of an alternative point of
    view.